46. The Khmer Rouge, Mr Clever and Me

[00:00:00] Chris:  It started well, and then the commander said, "Don't worry, I don't have the authority to kill you today", which was positive, for that day anyway.

Early days

[00:00:54] Chris: I think one of my earliest memories is when my dad got my sister and I a pony. I think I must have been about three.

And I grew up in the countryside, all of my family farmed except my dad. I'd spend all my waking hours out running around the next door neighbour's farm and our garden and the fields.

And the countryside, it - I guess - was something that became part of my life.

[00:01:16] Steve: This is Chris Moon. And although he didn't know it at the time, that early connection with the countryside would take him on a journey that would change the course of his life dramatically. But before we go there, I was curious to find out why Chris's father didn't become a farmer.

Farming - early life lesson

[00:01:35] Chris: There was one slight problem. We were poor. We didn't have any land or money.

So I came up with a plan and I worked my way into a partnership by the age of 21.

And my business partner had a brilliant attitude to work and he just said to me, " We have to look after ourselves.

You can never be sick, you can never be injured, because we've got to milk the cows seven days a week, twice a day.

And it all starts with keeping your head in the right place".

And unfortunately, there was just one piece of the jigsaw he missed. That was looking after his long term health.

He wore out his knees and his hips by his mid fifties and, I worried about him and then realized that it wasn't sustainable, that he needed to sell up and enjoy his money, I needed to go and do something else.

And I wanted to do something humanitarian. So I decided the humanitarian thing to do was join the army and learn how to kill people.

[00:02:22] Steve: Just before you switch off, because you think I'm talking to a raving lunatic, bear with me.

Chris has an insatiably dry sense of humour. He's the master of self-deprecation.

And when you hear his story, his selflessness, courage and sheer bloody mindedness, it'll start to make sense.

So why did Chris really joined the army?

Army to Halo Trust

[00:02:49] Chris: I joined the army to stop bad things happening.

I was commissioned into the Royal Military Police. I did three years on counter-terrorist operations stopping people being blown up.

The army was fabulous. I guess if I had my time again, I would have stayed just a bit longer, but I was in a hurry.

I wanted to go and do something that used both my military background  and coming from a farming background I was very keen to do something practical and make a difference and clearing landmines with a charity called the Halo Trust just absolutely fitted what I wanted to do.

The Halo Trust

[00:03:21] Steve: The Halo Trust was founded in 1988 by Lieutenant Colonel Colin Mitchell, Guy Willoughby and Susan Mitchell.

Having witnessed the civilian devastation brought about by landmines and other remnants from the war in Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal, they decided to do something about it and started the Halo Trust in Kabul, basically using military skills for humanitarian purposes.

 Today they have programs in over 28 countries.

Chris's first tour of duty with a Halo Trust, Cambodia 1993.

Cambodia, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge

[00:04:02] Chris: Essentially the nation was tortured by war in the 20th century.

And during the 1950s, there was an insurgency from extreme Maoist guerrillas, the Cambodian Communist Party, which became the Red Khmers, the Khmer Rouge run by Pol Pot, and they fought an insurgency war against an American backed government with puppet leader Lon Nol.

And eventually, in 1975, on April the 16th, the Khmer Rouge, after a long, bloody civil war, with massive amounts of American ordnance dropped indiscriminately in Cambodia to attempt to push the communists back and stop Vietnam being supplied with weapons, the Khmer Rouge took power.

And then began perhaps what is one of the most cruelest social experiments back to the year zero.

[00:04:54] Steve: Now, back in the seventies as a young boy, I would often be in the living room as my father watched the BBC early evening news.

 And the names Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge would appear alongside some fairly disturbing images.

I remember vividly being quite spooked whenever those two names came up. And hearing Chris talk about that cruelest social experiment reminded me why.

[00:05:28] Chris:  They were paranoid about spies. They had rigorous detention facilities where people who were thought to be ideologically impure were tortured.

 To give you an example of what the Khmer Rouge were like; in 1975 they set up an interrogation centre in a school called Tuol Sleng.

[00:05:48] Chris:  This is where they sent their own people who were seen as ideologically impure to be tortured and interrogated, and have their confessions extracted so they could then be executed.

There was no concept of innocence or guilt. 17, 000 people were sent there and only 10 survived.

 ...those 10 were simply kept alive because they were useful to run the place.

[00:06:25] Steve: Tuol Sleng has been preserved as a museum with some of the associated killing fields. But every commune, every village had its own Tuol Sleng.

 Estimated number of deaths resulting from Khmer Rouge policies during that period we're between 1.5 and 2.5 million out of a total population of 8 million.

 Pol Pot was overthrown in 1979, but he and the Khmer Rouge remained intact and civil war continued for a further 20 years.

So when Chris arrived in Cambodia in 1993 to help de-mine vast areas of Cambodia after years of war, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge we're still there.

1993: Chris with Halo Trust team mates in Cambodia.

Chris arrives in Cambodia with United Nations

[00:07:19] Chris: I went there at the height of a massive United Nations military operation to supervise and bring stability so that elections could be held.

 ...the Khmer Rouge chose not to take part in the elections.

The fighting rippled on in the rural areas.

 The United Nations became the transitional authority in Cambodia. They guaranteed our security.

They said there was... no way the Khmer Rouge could get anywhere near us in the region where they asked us to clear landmines in a remote border village.

It was my second day in that village when we were ambushed  and I was taken prisoner by the Khmer Rouge.

Captured by Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge

[00:08:00] Chris: We were clearing landmines in a border village that was just on the edge of the forest, a beautiful natural landscape.

   ...the village had been heavily mined and the local village chief wanted the landmines cleared so that they could have a school built in the village.

[00:08:19] Steve: It was exceptionally hot. It was the wet season. Soon the rains would be coming, but the work continued.

[00:08:27] Chris:  As we came to a clearing, something felt wrong. The hairs on the back of my neck stood up and I could feel the presence of evil.

 From the other side of the clearing, a platoon around about 30 heavily armed Khmer Rouge guerrillas come charging out.

They're well camouflaged, they had bushes tucked into their webbing, couldn't see them until they started moving.

I've got a truck behind me, a Russian ZIL truck with 13 of my Cambodian staff on it.

I've got 6 of my guys in my Land Rover with me, but we're caught like rats in a trap. It's a brilliantly executed ambush.

 The only thing I can do is stay calm and stand still and stop my guys from running.

[00:09:09] Steve: Chris, let me just hold you there. When you first felt something was wrong, as it turns out the arrival of the Khmer Rouge, you said that you sensed the presence of evil? Can you just elaborate on that for me?

[00:09:23] Chris: The thing that is difficult to explain about what it feels like to be a prisoner of the Khmer Rouge is the ever present feeling of evil.

People who visit Tuol Sleng, the museum in the interrogation center in Phnom Penh, they all describe this feeling of horror, of evil.

You can feel the badness. And that's exactly what I felt.

[00:09:48] Steve: Wow. So getting back to those first few moments during your actual capture, what was going through your head?

[00:09:57] Chris:  These are best trained soldiers I've seen in Cambodia.

The weapons are all well oiled and maintained. They are incredibly aggressive.

Then, I think, as we're caught, they pushed back to an area completely surrounded by thorn trees, "There's nothing we can do".

I think, "Well, this can't get any worse Then a Khmer Rouge soldier walks over, shoves an AK-47 up my left nostril and says, "Take your clothes off". And at that point I realised it could get a lot worse.

  And then I realized that I had to have a strategy. My thoughts were running wild.

[00:10:40] Chris: The first thing I had to do was get my head in the right place.

I need a strategy

[00:10:52] Steve: Interestingly enough,you used that expression, "Get your head in the right place" when you quoted your farming partner as a 21 year old. What fascinates me as someone who has never got remotely close to being in a situation like this, is how you managed to coherently process information under such stress.

[00:11:12] Chris: Right yes, I'm trying to process everything, every little scrap of information I can get.

They're searching my Land Rover, they're pointing at me. They're pointing at the Senior Khmer and then they're pointing at the truck driver.

 And then they separate us. And I thought, "Right, looks like we're going to be taken".

I will never assume the role of victim. Because I know that if you behave like a prey, a predator will pounce on you.

I went to six different schools. I didn't get expelled, I hasten to add.

But, what I learned is, which kid gets bullied, it's not always the new kid. It's the kid, sadly, that looks like a victim.

 Between a stimulus and a response, there is a slight pause. Our survival depends on owning the pause.

What we can do is be masters of our own thinking.

And then we can become proactive.

[00:12:13] Steve: That clarity of thought and training had prepared Chris to prepare himself.

Despite being ambushed by the front men of a cruel regime and despite unimaginable pressure, Chris had a strategy. He was ready.

[00:12:30] Chris: So I'm not gonna be a victim, then I'm gonna get out the killing ground.

So the first thing I do is take a step back and start to take my clothes off, and I put them on the ground.

 And then I'm told to step back again. And then they search my clothes, they steal everything out of my clothes.

And then I'm told that I have to go to the vehicle to speak to the commander. I know, it looks like now we're going to be driving in the worst malarial infected forest in Cambodia, so I need my clothes. I need protection so I don't get bitten by mosquitoes.

So the first thing I do is when he says walk over is I run, I pick my clothes up and as I run over, I put my clothes on as I'm running.

 Because I'm doing it running, there isn't time for them to say anything. But by the time I've got to the commander, I've got my clothes on.

And then I greet him politely. Senior commanders will talk to each other very politely.

 In Cambodia the smile means something different and they could politely talk and at the same time kill you.

It's what's behind the smile we need to understand. So you can't assume everything's okay because they're smiling at you.

 What they do is they arrest me. They tell me I am a military advisor to the government, I'm a Khmer Rouge prisoner of war.

If I do not follow the orders instantly, I will be shot. If I attempt to escape, I will be shot.  

[00:13:53] Steve: So after only two days in country with the full assurance of safety from the United Nations already a distant memory, Chris and his mine clearance team had been rounded up, strip-searched and prepared for a trip to... who knows where.

The Halo Trust HQ, Cambodia, prior to Chris' capture.

Journey to the heartland of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge

[00:14:10] Chris: So, we start driving. And at this point, my farming background kicked in. It was so helpful. I'd grown up driving 4x4 vehicles.

They were making us drive along a footpath that they followed through the forest.

 If we hadn't cleared out of there quickly, and got moving quickly, I think there's a fair chance we would have been shot.

 We are told that if the local military in any way try to come and rescue us, they're just gonna shoot us and burn the vehicles. So, we have to keep moving.

 In the afternoon, there is a heavy monsoon rain and we get to a river and for the first time, I find a way to be in control.

The river

[00:14:49] Chris:  The river is running really fast, and they say, "We want you to drive through the river", and I say, "But we can't, the vehicles will be washed away".

And then we wait. And for the first time, I'm feeling happy because I'm now in control.

I'm controlling our movement and I started doing that when the vehicles got stuck. I could get them moving and keep them moving.

But now I don't want to go into their territory any further, and I found the perfect excuse to stop.

I ask both of my two Cambodian staff to listen to everything the soldiers are saying, and then come and tell me. The senior commander and the senior soldier have a row by the river. Now I'm starting to divide them.

And then I say to them, "Look, I'll come back tomorrow", and they're very polite about it, and say, "Oh, no, you must come back and meet our commander tonight", but it was worth a try.

[00:15:41] Steve: Well, I suppose if you don't ask, you don't get so... but at least you're having a polite dialogue, which was one of your objectives.

 So you're patiently waiting. The Khmer Rouge commander is involved in a row. What happens next?

[00:15:57] Chris:  Mr. Chan, the driver of the truck, comes up and he's deathly, deathly pale and shaking and I said to him, "What's wrong?"

And he said, "Well, I've just heard the soldiers talking and they say if we don't get the vehicles through this river in 20 minutes, they're going to shoot us and burn the vehicles".

[00:16:17] Steve: Chris's predicament. If they try to drive the land Rover through the deep and fast running river, they may be washed away. If they don't, they may be shot. Not surprisingly, Chris opted for option A: to try and cross the river.

[00:16:36] Chris:  I managed to do it by sending the big six-wheel Russian truck through.

 It's a really heavy, heavy vehicle, and I put my Land Rover winch on the back of the truck and I signalled for him to go through.

 And when he gets to the other side, I walk through the river. I show him exactly where he needs to accelerate to pull the Land Rover through the deepest water, and we get to the deep water and my Land Rover floats.

And we start going downstream, but he did exactly as I asked him to and we got pulled through when we were floating, and didn't get washed downstream.

[00:17:21] Steve: So Chris had knocked down one obstacle, but there were many more to follow. He was a long way from waking up from this nightmare.

The unenviable job of demining in Cambodia

Deeper into Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge territory

[00:17:32] Chris: The vehicles were constantly stuck and we were in fear if we didn't get them out of... that would be it. And there were several times when it came close.

 ... that night we were told that we'd stopped in a minefield, there was quite a lot of overgrown vegetation as well.

 But you could see that there was no escape.

[00:17:51] Steve: The more they edged further into their territory, the more confident the Khmer Rouge soldiers became.

 Chris continue to try and exert what limited control over the situation he could.

Trying to forge a relationship & interrogation

[00:18:04] Chris: I tried very hard to form relationships with all of the Khmer Rouge who were guarding us.

 The way some guards treated you when their commanders were looking was very different to the way they treated you when their commanders were not looking.

 I got taken to be interrogated by a Khmer Rouge commander.

 And the soldier when he took me in and made me sit down in this small wooden hut, he said to the commander, "(no original language currently available)" which means, "He works very well".

 They have huge respect for people who can work physically hard. So, that gives me something in common with them and I'm useful to them.

 I spent a lot of time rehearsing what I would say when I was first interrogated, and I did a mental rehearsal, I had an exact image in my mind.

 And I made sure that the driver and the operations officer had the same story as me and that they talked about what we did as a neutral, non-government charity and that we weren't associated to the government.

 It started well, and then the commander said, "Don't worry, I don't have the authority to kill you today",  which was positive,  for that day anyway.

[00:19:24] Steve: Chris and his team had made it through day one, but it was a close call that they survived.

And despite Chris's efforts to build rapport, he hadn't yet been introduced to anyone with whom he could build a proper connection.

But the next day at about three in the afternoon, that was about to change.

Chris at work for The Halo Trust in Cambodia, 1993.

Meeting Khmer Rouge general - Mr Clever

[00:19:48] Chris: We met General Kao Pong. At that stage I didn't know that was his name. He was just given a local nickname, Mr Clever  ... he was better educated.

 I thought, " Please let me talk to a commander who can understand the concept of a neutral charity like the International Committee of the Red Cross, and that we were not associated with the government, that we were neutral.

 Mr. Clever said, "Ah, so you're the reason I'm here".

And I said, "Pardon?" And he said... "Yeah, this morning at 8 o'clock I heard a voice in my head tell me I had to stay here, there would be something important to do this afternoon".

So what do you call it? Telepathy, serendipity, the grace of God?

I don't know, but I can tell you it happens. When you get your head in the right place, things start to fit into place.

[00:20:45] Steve: And although Chris didn't know it at the time, this meeting with Mr. Clever would ultimately save his life.

 The trigger was the arrival of a helicopter flying low overhead.

[00:20:59] Chris:  All hell broke loose. They tried to shoot it down. I tried to stop them shooting it down. God, it was utter chaos.

 The astonishing thing was that there was just so much firing in the forest around us.

 They built their huts to not be seen from the air and there were over a hundred soldiers just in that small area, all trying to shoot down that helicopter.

[00:21:31] Steve: Well, the helicopter got away from the area without being hit, but it gave Chris an understanding of Mr. Clever's anxiety in the situation.

 He was concerned that he was a target from the air while exposed with the prisoners but...

 if he released us and the leader of the Khmer Rouge found out about it, it would put his life in danger because he would be seen as ideologically impure. So now, we are in a real Catch-22 situation.

.... and this is what they were looking for! A lot of them.

Building rapport with Mr Clever

[00:21:59] Steve: Recognizing the urgency of the situation. Chris spent the rest of the day building rapport and trying to convince Mr. Clever to release them.

[00:22:09] Chris: I worked very hard building a relationship with Mr. Clever  in which I explained that I was a farmer and I understood the ideals of the Khmer Rouge and that I was there to help the Cambodian people... that I was neutral, I wasn't working with the government.

 And I finally built a relationship with him and asked him for a guarantee of security so that I could go back and continue my work.

 He said something really that took my breath away. He said, "Thousands of people have been brought before me. You're the first one who isn't afraid of me, so I know that you're a good person like me".

[00:22:46] Steve: And with that, Mr. Clever simply released Chris and his team. Something he should never have done.

 But because Mr. Clever had had that feeling that he should remain on site that day, because he had a feeling about Chris and because he was probably the only commander in the area with whom Chris could have built any real level of rapport, Chris had been given a window of opportunity to survive.

[00:23:21] Chris:  But at this point it gets complicated, because he didn't want me to exit through his area, through his divisional command area.

He sent me back through another Khmer Rouge unit's territory, so he wasn't implicated.

[00:23:44] Steve: And despite having to Trek back to the village via other Khmer Rouge territory, and despite two further encounters with Khmer Rouge soldiers on the way, they eventually had a clear run back to the village from where they'd started out three days before.

The Barang Ghost

[00:24:00] Chris: And we walked back through 50 kilometers of mined and patrolled jungle and I managed to avoid the patrols.

We crossed two minefields and then we got back to the village where we were originally taken.

 And the people in the first huts, as we went into the village, when I spoke to them woke them up, they screamed and ran away from me, "The Barang Ghost is here". Understandably, they believed I was a ghost because spirits and ghosts come out of the forest at night and they had been told that I would be executed and nobody else had ever come back from Khmer Rouge territory alive before.

Back to safety

[00:24:44] Steve: After the village had been convinced that he wasn't the Barang Ghost and after a very good night's sleep, Chris and his team trekked the final 11 kilometers to their ultimate destination.

[00:24:59] Chris: When we reached the outskirts of the village, it was quite a big village, a logging village, there was somebody ahead of us on a bicycle who told people that we were coming.

And I think it's the most moving moment of my life.

They were just so pleased that a bad thing hadn't happened and that somehow, against all the odds, we had survived.

The most unlikely reunion

[00:25:20] Steve: Chris's experience with the Khmer Rouge was extraordinary enough. But believe it or not, it was trumped some years later by surely one of history's most unlikely reunions.

To put that reunion into context, we need to rewind back to that moment when the helicopter had just left the scene two days before and Chris was standing outside the hut of Mr. Clever.

 Mr. Clever was taking a call.

[00:25:51] Chris: it was Khmer Rouge headquarters asking if he was holding us prisoner and he denied holding us prisoner which was terrifying, because in one respect it means nobody knows we're here, we're deniable. We don't exist.

Years and years later when I tracked down Mr. Clever, whose real name I found out to be General Kao Pong, I found out that that moment, he was trying to protect us.

 He knew that if we went into the prisoner handling system, we would be executed.

And so he did it to save our lives because of the relationship and the understanding that we had created.

 And as a result of making that decision not to execute us, he was seen as ideologically impure and eventually Pol Pot found out and he sent people to kill him.

But he heard about this and he defected to the government side. And it was the biggest defection bringing an end to the fighting.

 So, he had a pretty big influence on my life, and I had a pretty big influence on his life.

[00:27:06] Steve: Chris had tracked down Mr. Clever, his captor. The connection that they developed in the most extreme of circumstances during Chris's capture, as it turns out, was real and strong.

And here's the most amazing thing of all.

[00:27:33] Chris: So now Mr. Clever and I would call each other friends yeah, he's got a great life.

He's a senior advisor to the Prime Minister Hun Sen.

 (Note: Hun Sen has now stepped down as Cambodian Prime Minister and was succeeded by his eldest son, Hun Manet)

[00:27:41] Steve:  He's still a General in the Cambodian Army and his family are all well and happy and he travels the world and... we, I guess, have a special bond.  We often talk on this podcast about how humanity has so much more in common than in whatever divides us.

And it's hard to think of more striking symbolism for that thought than Chris and Mr. Clever.

Now, to finish off the story and fill you in on what Chris is up to today isn't quite as simple as it might be.

You see his passion for the work of the Halo Trust hadn't diminished one iota.

He remained in Cambodia for another two years running mine clearance teams. Once he left Cambodia, he moved on to run a large program in north Mozambique.

In later life, and minus two limbs, Chris takes up ultra-distance running - here, running the length of Cambodia.

Achievement out of adversity

[00:28:44] Steve: And it was while walking back up a previously demined area, a safe lane, that Chris trod on a mine and was literally blown up.

 He'd lost a leg and an arm. But somehow survived with minimal quantities of blood.

If you check out the show notes, you can hear Chris's own account of that experience in which, terrifyingly, he remained lucid throughout.

It won't surprise you to hear that this latest setback didn't deter Chris from achieving. Within one year of that day, he successfully completed a Master's degree in Human Behaviour and run the London Marathon.

And, as he likes to point out, artificial limbs weren't like they are today back then! The passion for life just kept growing.

[00:29:44] Chris: I used to love running in the mountains and hills. It was something I did in the army and it was something I wanted to get back.

So, with some friends of mine,   one of them said, "Well, you should try the Marathon de Sable".

And that was how I started on my journey to become the world's first amputee ultra distance runner, which I'm pleased to say I became in 1997.

 Subsequently, I've done many of the world's toughest ultra marathons.

My favorite is in Death Valley in the hottest place on earth at the hottest time of year, and it's called The Bad Water Death Valley Ultra 135 Mile Fun Run.

And having completed that one six times now, I can assure you the fun bit's finishing.

One Step Beyond

[00:30:29] Steve: Now, Chris, somewhere in the middle of all this, you managed to write your book, the rather poignantly named, "One Step Beyond". What was the motivation behind writing it?

[00:30:41] Chris: I wanted to share the experience of being in the middle of nowhere, facing life and death and understanding that we don't have to give up and that life is truly a gift we take for granted.

 And I've been very privileged to have been in some interesting and unusual situations. And people ask me to share my stories.

[00:31:04] Steve: The book was, and is, a great success and it also led to other new opportunities.

Chris Moon MBE today

[00:31:12] Chris: Much of my background, both in the military and with the Halo Trust was about leadership and growing people and helping them develop and get to the next level and make the best of their lives.

That's something I'm enormously passionate about. So after I'd written my autobiography, I was asked to speak around the world at various events and share my experiences.

And there are three angles to what I do now. I've got lots of experience on the balance of life and death and limit of human endurance.

 Much of my life has been about the pursuit of wisdom. And those experiences are really useful because there is absolute clarity in principles that we can use in our daily lives, to do what we do better and improve individual and team performance.

 And the second angle is I did my Master's in Human Behavior. I've worked a lot with psychologists and the business schools.

 So there's academic rigour to the programs that I run and the speeches that I give, but people want the experiences.

You know, I think we want stories which are a much better way of illustrating principles that we can use rather than theory.

[00:32:19] Steve: And the third angle?

[00:32:21] Chris: ... I love being with people. I have a great desire to entertain and make people laugh and that's something that I've always done actually, I was always in the school plays.

 So, I love being with people and I love sharing experiences that will help people do what they do better and make the best of their lives, be energized and enthused.

Learning from the Khmer Rouge, Pol Pot and life in general

[00:32:50] Steve: And you've obviously gone through a lot of reflection from your unique experiences in the army, in Cambodia, in Mozambique, and. In your life since then. Where have you got to with that?

[00:33:05] Chris: What makes us the people we are? I think we are who we choose to be.

I am not a naturally positive person but I get up every day and I do the work to be positive because I know the price of negativity is too high to pay.

Nobody wants to be near a bitter and negative person. I choose to be thankful.

But of course, nothing in life works unless we do, and we've got to do the work.

[00:33:28] Steve: And if you'd like just a little of that positivity to rub off, then Chris would love to hear from you. You can find his LinkedIn and website details on the show notes over at BattingtheBreeze.com.

Let's give Chris the final word.

[00:33:45] Chris: I've been privileged to travel the world and I've learned that our similarities are greater than our differences, if we choose to focus on them.

 And, as I look at the world today, there's so much madness and sadness.

 I realise that humankind's greatest enemy is not another religion, nation, state, ideology, nationality.

Humankind's greatest enemy is the violence and aggression itself.

As Einstein said, " Our technology has advanced faster than our humanity".  Now the challenge for humanity in the 21st century is to make sure that our humanity catches up.

ATTRIBUTIONS

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